Buzzflash
del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Mixx it!
Reddit
Pat Robertson, that wise prognosticator you all know and love has a brand new prediction for his flock: millions of them will most likely die at the end of this new year. On his incredibly classless program The 700 Club, where last year Robertson proved what a good Christian he was by calling for Venezuela's Hugo Chavez to be killed, he announced that God has told him of a "mass killing" coming at the end of '07.
"The Lord didn't say nuclear. But I do believe it will be something like that," Robertson stated matter-of-factly. God apparently delivers these cataclysmic predictions on a regular basis to Robertson's doorstep. Last year God told Robertson that a tsunami would probably slam against our country. ( I guess God was just playing a practical joke.)
Who knows why this terrible "mass killing" is bound to occur? Something tells me Robertson will link it to the incoming Democratic Congress or perhaps the existence of abortion rights and homosexuals. Whatever reason he cites you can be sure it is meant to manipulate and malign, because that's what Robertson does best.
Share this article
News & Analysis »
- Atrios
- Arts and Letters Daily
- The Caucus
- Campus Progress
- Crooks and Liars
- The Daily Gotham
- Daily Kos
- FAIR
- Feministe
- Feministing
- Firedoglake
- Glenn Greenwald
- Gothamist
- In these Times
- Hendrik Hertzberg
- Huffington Post
- Matthew Yglesias
- Media Matters
- Mother Jones
- My DD
- New York Review of Books
- Openleft
- Pam's House Blend
- Political Wire
- The Progressive
- RaceWire
- Real Clear Politics
- Roberto Lovato
- Romenesko
- Swing State Project
- Talking Points Memo
- Ta-Nehisi Coates
- Tapped
- Tech President
- Tompaine
- The Washington Note
- Utne Reader
- Wonkette
RSS
Seriously.....Ol' "Marion Gordon" Robertson is good for a few laughs, but is he really relevant anymore?
He handed off the ChrisCoalition to Reed years ago, so he's go no political clout....and after his goofiness with Falwell after 9/11 blaming it (Achmadinejad-style) on gays and abortionists in the US...
does ANYBODY (even LVLIB) really defend, much less listen to this wacko anymore?
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 10:21am
Posted by MASK 01/03/2007 @ 10:21am
he's on tv...so yes...someone is listening to him...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/03/2007 @ 10:27am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 01/03/2007 @ 10:27am
He BUYS his air-time, IBBLE...with contributions from little ol' ladies trying to buy their way into Heaven.
His political clout is almost non-existant....especially given Christian Coalition is actually working groups like "Move On.org" on net neutrality, etc.
Pat is like the senile grandpa that sits at the Christmas dinner table and suddenly spouts off about "Commies in my rose bushes!" and the family just stares at him for a minute, says "Sure, Grandpa...we'll get the Commies out of your rosebushes tomorrow", then goes back to eating.
He's good joke fodder for Adam Howard and the guys at Air America...but his political "impact" is negligible and has been for years.
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 10:33am
Posted by MASK 01/03/2007 @ 10:33am
true...but he IS a good butt of jokes...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 01/03/2007 @ 10:41am
"The Lord didn't say nuclear." What did he say--"nucular?" But, kidding aside, I got the same message. As soon as I finish translating it (from the German--Gott spricht Deutsch), I'll post it on HiersprichtGott.com
Posted by donescobar at 01/03/2007 @ 11:00am
Why is this a story worth an article here....?
if it happens...THEN you have a story...but until then, you have what?
Posted by john maasch at 01/03/2007 @ 11:21am
Millions of Americans worship Pat Robertson. They are one of the core constituencies of the Republican Party. A political party with a constituency like this cannot be trusted in any public office that requires adult decisionmaking.
If God were actually to tell Pat Robertson anything it would be more along the lines of, "You experienced a mass killing of brain cells in 1997. Stuff a sock in your piehole, already."
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 11:26am
a merciful god would make sure to start with Robertson, who gives god and religion a bad name.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 11:30am
Pat Robertson has had several personal meetings in the White House with George Bush, the leader of the Republican Party. He has plenty of political clout with millions of nutcase Republicans. That's why Bush schedules personal meetings with him- to make sure the nutcase armageddonite "Christians" stay tied down for the Republican Party.
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 11:48am
"Pat Robertson has had several personal meetings in the White House with George Bush, the leader of the Republican Party. "
So what? Bush is done and has no influence over conservatives, especially now that he has proven beyond a doubt that he is not conservative..and Robertson's clutch slipped along time ago and he isn't taken seriously by anyone....President meet with people all the time...not every meeting has a "special" meaning...Bush even met with Pelosi....
Think every meeting Clinton had was laced with a hidden agenda? Or Bush 1 or Reagan...
Posted by john maasch at 01/03/2007 @ 11:57am
If you need MORE evidence of the political irrelevance of Pat Robertson....
just look to the fact that FROMDEDHED thinks he HAS political relevance!
hehe
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 12:12pm
If you need MORE evidence of the political irrelevance of Pat Robertson....
just look to the fact that FROMDEDHED thinks he HAS political relevance!
hehe
Posted by MASK 01/03/2007 @ 12:12am
EXACTLY..HEHE
Posted by john maasch at 01/03/2007 @ 12:14pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/03/2007 @ 12:14am
Oh, now you just did that to make him mad, cuz you know that THIS WEEK, I'm on his Ignore List...hmmm?
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 12:56pm
I absolutely HAD to release my ignore list for a Pat Robertson thread.
What do I see? MASK and MAASCH trying to convince everyone that a not-yet-certified nut like Pat Robertson isn't really a Republican and that he has no political influence just because every news outlet in America quotes him and he has personal meetings at the White House with President George Bush, the leader of the Republican Party.
Who ya' gonna believe- MASK abd MAASCH, or your lyin' eyes?
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 12:56pm
Sure, this is certifiable stuff, but it just doesn't smell any worse than the garbage in most Americans' heads. Watching the Orange Bowl last night and the sideline reporter, in a constant search for a heartwarming/heartbreaking story found the family of a deceased player in the stands, who said with united self-assurance that they knew that "-----" was still with them. This was not the same as my deeply implanted and important memories of my grandfather; these people genuinely felt that their brother/son was present, a la crystal balls and ouija boards. And this enculturated dementia is the norm, to the point that an atheist friend's family (most of whom practice no religion) comforted her 4 year-old cousin on the loss of his great grandfather with assurances of heaven, Jesus and angels.
I'm just glad that the Old Testament God is still kicking. And I will be entirely and unremorsefully amused if Pat should get his opportunity to meet his god during the '07 Drive By from Heaven.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 12:57pm
Think every meeting Clinton had was laced with a hidden agenda? Or Bush 1 or Reagan...
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/03/2007 @ 11:57am
What's "hidden" about a president meeting with a religious zealot? Seems pretty obvious to me.
Just as I am sure there was no hidden agenda when Cheney convened his energy task force.
Oh my god! He didn't bring up that whole canard, did he?
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 1:03pm
Oh, now you just did that to make him mad, cuz you know that THIS WEEK, I'm on his Ignore List...hmmm?
Posted by MASK 01/03/2007 @ 12:56am | ignore this person
I absolutely HAD to release my ignore list for a Pat Robertson thread.
Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/03/2007 @ 12:56am
Is the week over already?!?!?!?!?...hehe
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 1:12pm
BTW, Robertson is only slightly more nutty than the "liberal Reverands", like Sharpton and Jackson....
and the GOP had the good sense to NOT let him speak at the 2004 Convention.
Wish the Dems would learn the same lesson about Al and Jesse!
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 1:14pm
That the leftists and the atheists call Pat looney is no surprise. All of you label Jesus the same way. After all, He must have been delusional according to your thinking to have even uttered the following:
And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
Matthew 24:3-9
Judgment is coming to mankind, and all of your taunts, jeers, and disbelief will not change it. 2007 may well be a year of judgment upon mankind, but only the start of it. God desires for all of mankind to repent, but most will not. Pride, self-centeredness, unbelief, and hatred towards God will deceive a great many in this country and elsewhere.
It is not because Jesus or God the Father are vengeful or angry that judgment is coming, it is because of man's wickedness.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
What was going on in those Lincoln bedroom meetings? Huh? Any secret cash change hands?
:) Get real.
Posted by john maasch at 01/03/2007 @ 1:16pm
Mask has stolen my thunder with ol' Jesse!!
And yes, Mask, Science Theatre 3000 was from there and was great...loved those comments by the robots....
Posted by john maasch at 01/03/2007 @ 1:18pm
Why is this a story worth an article here....?
if it happens...THEN you have a story...but until then, you have what?
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/03/2007 @ 11:21am | ignore this person
when Chavez or the Iranian pres says something, you have a conniption fit, when this a-hole says the most outrageous thing, no story here. can you say, I won't ask if you can spell, hypocrite?
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 1:21pm
Why is this a story worth an article here....?
if it happens...THEN you have a story...but until then, you have what?
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 01/03/2007 @ 11:21am | ignore this person
Because there are millions of poor, misinformed Americans that believe whatever garbage spews from Robertson's mouth.
Posted by mtspence05 at 01/03/2007 @ 1:22pm
It is not because Jesus or God the Father are vengeful or angry that judgment is coming, it is because of man's wickedness.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
Well, knock it off, then. I've done a complete examination and have found MY life as well as those of my loved ones devoid of wickedness. Perhaps we have different benchmarks. Mine begins with the presumption that I cannot possibly know what any deity might want of me. Wickedness begins at the point one dares to assume that the supernatural flows within him.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 1:23pm
What was going on in those Lincoln bedroom meetings?
you mean the meetings with the gay hooker? do I have to draw you a picture?
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 1:24pm
liberty, you have revealed yourself to be as big an a-hole as Robertson by defending him and his lunatic drivel.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 1:25pm
sorry lib, it's better I ignore you than insult you.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 1:40pm
sorry lib, it's better I ignore you than insult you.
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/03/2007 @ 1:40pm
I took no offense, felt no insult. Your response is to be expected and understandable from an atheist.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 1:48pm
what makes you think I'm an atheist? I think my position is a whole lot more nuanced than that.
what I object to with your posts that you are a one trick pony. everything is put through the meatgrinder of your interpretation of scripture. in addition to your denigrating everyone who disagrees with you and all other religions.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 1:52pm
You're an atheist because you do not agree with him.
Hey, Liberty boy, God just talked to me. He wants you to liquidate all your assets, give me all your cash, and then go to the desert and pray. What else I'm not sure, the call dropped.
Posted by mtspence05 at 01/03/2007 @ 2:09pm
That the leftists and the atheists call Pat looney is no surprise. All of you label Jesus the same way.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
I'm sorry, did you just put Marion Gordon Robertson ....in the same category as Jesus Christ?!?!?!??
Come on, LVLIB....would Jesus deal with African dictators like Charles Taylor?
And do you defend Pat from....Worl d Net Daily?!?!?!? [worldnetdaily.com]
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 2:42pm
And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
Matthew 24:3-9
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
That isn't even close to saying, "God told me millions of Americans will die in a mass killing in September 2007".
Pat Robertson is a nutcase who needs to be committed. You'd make good company for him.
Yes, anyone who arranges for himself to be crucified is loony. But at least Jesus had some good things to say along the lines of "share the loaves" and "aid the Samaritan". Concepts that the likes of Pat Robertson despise.
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 2:48pm
That isn't even close to saying, "God told me millions of Americans will die in a mass killing in September 2007".
Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/03/2007 @ 2:48pm
It's kind of like old World Book encyclopedia purchases, Red. Most of us just bought the encyclopedias and thought that was well enough. Smarties like Pat also doled out for the annual Year Books to keep updated on God's most recent proclamations. It's dear of him to keep those of us too poor to keep up with God's--dare I say it--evolution in the know so that we can adjust our lives accordingly.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 2:51pm
does ANYBODY (even LVLIB) really defend, much less listen to this wacko anymore?
Posted by MASK 01/03/2007 @ 10:21am
That the leftists and the atheists call Pat looney is no surprise. All of you label Jesus the same way.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
Who ya' gonna believe- MASK or your lyin' eyes?
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 2:55pm
MASK. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 2:55pm
It is not because Jesus or God the Father are vengeful or angry that judgment is coming, it is because of man's wickedness.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
Thank you for the comforting message. Everyone who doesn't believe what you believe might prefer to be immolated by a God who is calm, collected, and serene rather than angry. That does sound a lot like a serial killer, however. Tell me again what the main attraction to you of your version of "Christianity" is?
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 3:00pm
Posted by FROMREDBIRD 01/03/2007 @ 2:55pm
I gave LVLIB a chance, FRB....unlike you, he's not TOTALLY irrational, occasionally can be lucid.
By the way, it's been almost 90 mintues....shouldn't you be putting me back on Ignore....for a day or so?
hehe
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 3:01pm
It's dear of him to keep those of us too poor to keep up with God's--dare I say it--evolution in the know so that we can adjust our lives accordingly.
Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/03/2007 @ 2:51pm
Odd, isn't it, that the adjustment always requires us to make ourselves identical to themselves?
Posted by fromredbird at 01/03/2007 @ 3:06pm
what I object to with your posts that you are a one trick pony. everything is put through the meatgrinder of your interpretation of scripture. in addition to your denigrating everyone who disagrees with you and all other religions.
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/03/2007 @ 1:52pm
JR,
Since you are aware that I am a pastor, what do you think should be my position on issues? Should I be ignorant? Should I claim that I don't have a position? Should I state that all positions are equally valid?
All of those responses would negate any credibility for me within my faith. Nearly all of my interpretations are solidly within both the 1st Century church and within the majority view of the Eastern Orthodox church (except for the book of Revelation), Catholicism (probably 60% or more shared doctrine), and Evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity (99.9%). My interpretations are shared by the vast majority of Evangelical and other conservative theologians.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 3:26pm
Liberty what I would ask of you that you think for yourself, as I do. I reference no one telling me what to think and feel. I quote no bronze age book, nor one from the iron age, those folks did not know the half of it, and neither do you. I have lived, 60 years and counting, ups and downs, likely met a greater variety of people than you have. my books are not a script that I follow.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 3:46pm
My interpretations are shared by the vast majority of Evangelical and other conservative theologians.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 3:26pm | ignore this person
it's not about the interpretation of scripture here. it is about making moral judgments about events transpiring right now.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 4:27pm
Liberty what I would ask of you that you think for yourself, as I do. I reference no one telling me what to think and feel. I quote no bronze age book, nor one from the iron age, those folks did not know the half of it, and neither do you. I have lived, 60 years and counting, ups and downs, likely met a greater variety of people than you have. my books are not a script that I follow.
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/03/2007 @ 3:46pm
JR,
You sidestepped my questions. I have a duty and obligation as a pastor to defend my faith (apart from the fact that I completely believe what I defend). It is an obligation that goes much further than that of an employee to obey and carry out the rules, regulations, and goals of the company they work for. In fact, it is a Biblical commandment (Jude verse 5).
As to your final comments, I actually doubt that you have jmet a greater variety of people than I have. I have lived in the US (4 different states), lived in Taiwan and the Philippines. Spent time working as a missionary in South Africa, working with orphans and the poor in Mexico, helping the homeless, drug addicts, prostitutes, and just the general poor White, Black, and Hispanic in South Central Los Angeles. I have traveled to more than 25 countries and met people from every walk of life, rich and poor. I have sat and talked religion here and overseas with Christians, Jews, Atheists, Muslims, and a smorgasboard of other beliefs. I attended both public college and religious college.
I just want you to understand that some of us in Conservative Christian America have very diversive life experiences also. It is not just liberals who have these kinds of life experiences.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 4:32pm
Again, LVLIBERTY....despite FRB (Or to spite him)...
Are you a Pat Robertson apologist?
Don't know if you looked at that World Net Daily link I posted...but Pat.....GAVE A PASS to China and it's one-child policy and FORCED ABORTIONS?!?!!?
to quote---"Citing social and economic catastrophes of near-Apocalyptic proportions should Chinese children be allowed to escape the womb alive, Robertson said, "I think that right now, they're doing what they have to do. I don't agree with forced abortion, but I don't think the United States needs to interfere with what they're doing internally in this regard."
Now, if I call Pat a looney over that...do I risk being accused of "That the leftists and the atheists call Pat looney is no surprise. All of you label Jesus the same way."---LVLIB
Posted by Mask at 01/03/2007 @ 4:35pm
it's not about the interpretation of scripture here. it is about making moral judgments about events transpiring right now.
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/03/2007 @ 4:27pm
Actually you said just the opposite a while ago.
what I object to with your posts that you are a one trick pony. everything is put through the meatgrinder of your interpretation of scripture. in addition to your denigrating everyone who disagrees with you and all other religions.
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/03/2007 @ 1:52pm
What JR shall we use to make our moral judgments? And what shall be the method of arbitrating differences in moral judgment when we don't all agree?
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 4:36pm
I stand corrected on the life experiences thing. I would have thought somewhere across the line you might have learned tolerance for other people and their views, and their religions. my point remains, we are not interpreting scripture here.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 4:37pm
it's not about the interpretation of scripture here. it is about making moral judgments about events transpiring right now.
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 01/03/2007 @ 4:27pm
Actually you said just the opposite a while ago.
what I object to with your posts that you are a one trick pony. everything is put through the meatgrinder of your interpretation of scripture. in addition to your denigrating everyone who disagrees with you and all other religions.
these are not opposite statements. read it again.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 4:41pm
"It is not because Jesus or God the Father are vengeful or angry that judgment is coming, it is because of man's wickedness."
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 1:15pm
Oh. I see. So all the vengence and anger, lake of fire etc. are created by and foisted upon the dead by wicked men?
Why doesn't your loving god save those he made in his image, from this horrible fate?
Oh yea. That god. The one who killed his own son, so he could find it in his heart, to not kill the rest of us, in spite of his neurotic desire to hate, that which he imperfectly created.
(Seriously, does it not bother you, that you worship a deity, who will condemn all who refuse to believe, using the faculties he allegedly provided, yet refuses to confirm his own existance? In other words; don't think with the brain I gave you, don't see with your eyes, don't believe anything else that you must take on faith...just believe this...or suffer forever. Oh by the way, call me benevolent, while you're sucking up...or else).
Bizarre.
Eric
Posted by Malcontent at 01/03/2007 @ 4:43pm
Are you a Pat Robertson apologist?
Don't know if you looked at that World Net Daily link I posted...but Pat.....GAVE A PASS to China and it's one-child policy and FORCED ABORTIONS?!?!!?
to quote---"Citing social and economic catastrophes of near-Apocalyptic proportions should Chinese children be allowed to escape the womb alive, Robertson said, "I think that right now, they're doing what they have to do. I don't agree with forced abortion, but I don't think the United States needs to interfere with what they're doing internally in this regard."
Now, if I call Pat a looney over that...do I risk being accused of "That the leftists and the atheists call Pat looney is no surprise. All of you label Jesus the same way."---LVLIB
Posted by MASK 01/03/2007 @ 4:35pm
PR apologist? NO
I do not agree with him on everything he believes and says.
On this particular subject, I was pointing out that his statements are entirely in line with the prophecies of Jesus. It in now way should have been interpreted by any reasonable person as equating PR with Jesus as you stated in your 2:42pm posting.
Also as to the China reference, PR stated that he disagrees with what they are doing and remains adamantly pro-life. He said he just phrased it badly when stating that it was an internal Chinese affair and the US should not interfere. Something I would think that ever liberal and you Mask would agree with.
I know Pat a little and in his senior years, he doesn't always frame his thoughts with the same detail as when younger (something I can identify with). But I still hold him in great respect for his service to God these many years.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 4:44pm
Posted by MALCONTENT 01/03/2007 @ 4:43pm
Free will, the ultimate gift from God. When people reject God, they are performing their own sentencing and condemnation. God respects the right of people to reject Him and thus people need to be prepared to accept the consequences of their decisions.
Accountability and responsibility, something liberalism tends to continually disregard.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 4:48pm
Trying to page through The Bible. Remind me again where Jesus speaks of free will.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 4:51pm
On this particular subject, I was pointing out that his statements are entirely in line with the prophecies of Jesus.
complete nonsense. you have learned nothing, you could work in a hundred more places, the result would be the same, the above statement is just insane.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 4:55pm
God respects the right of people to reject Him.
He could do better than to show me to the Gates of Hell. I don't need his respect. I need him to give me true free will, let me live as I please, die as I please, and fritter away to dust as I have envisioned.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 4:59pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 4:48pm
You talked around the point of my question. Freewill, would imply that I had a rational choice. If god came down and said, 'these are my rules, don't follow them at your own peril', that'd be freewill. But god shows no sign of himself. And until the advent of humanly created transportation, everyone, everywhere in the world, believed something different.
If I reach down, to help you out of a hole, and you refuse...that's exercising your free will.
If I tell you, you can't see me, but just hold up your hand and wait...and if I don't show, it's because you didn't actually believe or because I had different plans, which I'll not share with you, as you're too stupid to understand.
Quite often, my 6 yr. old neice, doesn't understand. But I try to explain as best I can anyway. What's up with your god?
Why did he only talk to men 2000yrs ago. If he made us, does he really think any sane person would believe the contradictory writings of centuries past. Why does he only talk to nutcases like robertson, instead of someone believable? Has he not mastered communication skills? Seriously, why would he intentionally create as much doubt as possible and then make the consequences for disbelief unbearable and eternal?
(Just between you and me, do you really think god is benevolent? Or are you afraid to voice your dissent? Is it fear or love? Cause I see the genesis of the fear, but gods love escapes me).
Eric
Posted by Malcontent at 01/03/2007 @ 5:11pm
Accountability and responsibility, something liberalism tends to continually disregard.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 4:48pm
Wait, wait, wait a flippin' minute. We're not responsible nor are we accountable because we deny that a power beyond us has laid down a set of rules that we need to follow or face eternal damnation? Accountable or responsible to whom or what are you referring? You cannot simultaneously be accountable for yourself while having God judge all your actions. I understand this has been the conservative mantra fleshed out most notoriously by Bill "Shuffle Up and Deal" Bennett, but you refer to the type of accountability we admire only in children: do this or else. Accountability is "doing this" because it is right, not because there is punishment to be feared. It is a delicate balance between seeking one's own place in the world and fighting like hell to achieve it, while recognizing the potential for a greater good in all of us. There is no need for God to determine what is right. There is, however, a need to keep oneself open to the world, an ability in which liberalism kicks ass over conservativism.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 5:17pm
"(Just between you and me,..."
Posted by MALCONTENT 01/03/2007 @ 5:11pm
Seriously. He's omnipotent and all, but we all know he wouldn't be caught dead, hanging out on a liberal blog. Hell, he had the last liberal, who worked for him, killed.
So, it's cool.
Posted by Malcontent at 01/03/2007 @ 5:20pm
Look at that, Eric. He loved us some liberty and then he left us hanging. Feelin' cheap and used.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 5:24pm
Trying to page through The Bible. Remind me again where Jesus speaks of free will.
Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/03/2007 @ 4:51pm
TJ,
The doctrine of free will goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve.
But let me lay it out as God said it to the Jews and I use here a Jewish commentary.
Maimonides also quotes Deuteronomy:
See, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil. I have commanded you today to love Hashem your G-d, to walk in his paths, and to keep His Commandments, Decrees, and Laws. You will then live and flourish, and Hashem your G-d will bless you...
But if your heart turns astray, and you do not listen... I am warning you today that you will be exterminated...
I call heaven and earth as witnesses. Before you I have placed life and death, the blessing and the curse. You must choose life, so that you and your descendants will live. -- Deut. 30:15-19
And Maimonides quotes:
You can therefore see that I am placing before you both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is obeying the Commandments of Hashem your G-d, which I am prescribing to you today. The curse is if you do not obey the Commandments of Hashem your G-d, and you go astray from the path that I am prescribing for you today, following the gods of others, which you have not known. -- Deut. 11:26-28
And finally:
Who can assure that their hearts will remain this way, that they will remain in such awe of me? If they did, they would keep my Commandments for all time, and all would go well with them and their children forever. -- Deut. 5:26-27
JudaismFreeWill [tinyurl.com]
In John 1:14 it says "But as many as received Him" which clearly shows a decision of will by mankind.
In Revelation 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice, and opens the door, I will come into him, and dine with him, and he with Me". That is a great statement of symbolism by the Lord that He doesn't come into relationship with us except by our freely admitting Him
Free will was the doctrine of the early church who continued in Jewish teaching on these issues. It was further expounded by Augustine and then Thomas Aquinas. Due to the early reformation revolt, Luther and Calvin taught against free will. The Catholic church produced at the Council of Trent their statement upholding man's free agency.
FreewillCatholicism [tinyurl.com]
The great debate since Luther and Calvin has been the divide in the Protestant faith which is now mainly called Arminiianism v Calvinism. Calvinism adopts the stance that since grace through Christ came into the world, there are those predestined to salvation and only those will accept Christ as Savior. Arminianism of which I follow, stays with the Jewish and Catholic teaching that man has Free Agency to choose or reject God. A good reference article on this divide follows:
Arminianism is the theological stance of James Arminius and the movement which stemmed from him. It views Christian doctrine much as the pre - Augustinian fathers did and as did the later John Wesley. In several basic ways it differs from the Augustinian fathers did and as did the later John Wesley. In several basic ways it differs from the Augustine - Luther - Calvin tradition.
This form of Protestanism arose in the United Netherlands shortly after the "alteration" from Roman Catholicism had occurred in that country. It stresses Scripture alone as the highest authority for doctrines. And it teaches that justification is by grace alone, there being no meritoriousness in our faith that occasions justification, since it is only through prevenient grace that fallen humanity can exercise that faith.
Arminianism is a distinct kind of Protestant theology for several reasons. One of its distinctions is its teaching on predestination. It teaches predestination, since the Scripture writers do, but it understands that this predecision on God's part is to save the ones who repent and believe. Thus its view is called conditional predestination, since the predetermination of the destiny of individuals is based on God's foreknowledge of the way in which they will either freely reject Christ or freely accept him.
Arminianism [tinyurl.com]
Joshua said it best in his farewell address to the Jewish people.
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 6:33pm
Got to run out and take care of some business. The wife wants to see some dollars in the bank account.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/03/2007 @ 6:35pm
In John 1:14 it says "But as many as received Him" which clearly shows a decision of will by mankind.
In Revelation 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice, and opens the door, I will come into him, and dine with him, and he with Me". That is a great statement of symbolism by the Lord that He doesn't come into relationship with us except by our freely admitting Him.
Free will to accept Jesus or not, which in turn means free will to choose eternal life in heaven or eternal damnation in hell. Hmm. Kind of a hefty price tag on something that is supposedly free. And what does the NT say about free will regarding things other than accepting or not accepting Jesus? I ask, because once one has acted freely and invited Jesus into his/her life, then their lives are subject to the litany of rules in the good book. So free will comes down to picking Jesus and following the rules that eliminate much of what makes existence fun (oh those tempting, tempting temptations), or having a brief fling and accepting the heat.
First, I gotta say God just does not make much sense. The first two humans he created messed up...and he blames them? Perhaps a little more prep work might have elminated the whole Original Sin thing. So we get punished for attempting to know too much, to become too godly. It appears that sin numero uno is lack of humility. Then much later in The Book we find that we are supposed to follow all of these rules in order to live, what?, a more Christlike existence. So our free will seems to be a matter of reaching up for a piece of satanic fruit in the delusional thought that it is actually divine. Too godly bad; not godly enough bad. God as Goldilocks. And who interprets all of this for us? Ministers and priests, men and women "of God". Sheesh.
But, again, things that are free are not supposed to come with asskickings. If I say, "stay or go; I don't care", then I'm offering you the opportunity to exercise your free will. But if what I really mean is that if you go, I'm locking the door behind you and keeping your stuff, then the decision is different. Free will as you define it exists only in that single issue of deity selection, an issue made easy for many of us who choose not to have our lives be determined by something requiring not just belief, but suspension of belief. Once that single decision is made, free will pretty much ends for those who join up...that is, unless they come to see the light of reality.
Crap, I'm being summoned by my better half. Sorry for the half thought.
Posted by tjbehrens1 at 01/03/2007 @ 7:15pm
Got to run out and take care of some business. The wife wants to see some dollars in the bank account.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/03/2007 @ 6:35pm | ignore this person
Crap, I'm being summoned by my better half. Sorry for the half thought.
Posted by TJBEHRENS1 01/03/2007 @ 7:15pm | ignore this person
hmm.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 7:45pm
free will?
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 7:52pm
It is not because Jesus or God the Father are vengeful or angry that judgment is coming, it is because of man's wickedness. --LVLIBERTY1
And so it became, verily I beseech thou to note, that my ignore list grew by one soul...
Posted by Left is Right at 01/03/2007 @ 8:29pm
Robertson...gives god and religion a bad name. --JOHANNESROLF
No, it's "god" and religion that give god and religion a bad name.
How is it that nutballs like Robertson--and for that matter Bin Laden--can be denounced by someone who supports the whole notion of religious faith? The whole idea of "faith" is that thought is to be suspended. Questions aren't allowed--you just accept it.
Robertson (assuming he is genuine, which is certainly open to question) and Bin Laden are motivated by what they perceive as religious absolutism. And, hey, you're not supposed to question "faith", right?
That being the (inarguable) basis for all religiosity, how can one support one manifestation of religious belief and not another? Both types of people, the Nutball and the Nutball Lite, are employing faith, which isn't (supposedly) open to question, and which cannot be definitively proven incorrect. The full-blown Nutball surely does more direct harm to fellow human beings, but the Nutball Lite is part and parcel of the same pile of bullshit that enables the whole paradigm to exist in the first place.
The fact that "mainstream" or "moderate" religion opens the door to nutball extremist religion is plainly evidenced by the stunning preponderance of zombies, even on this site, who exhibit latent violent tendencies by hoping for the suffering of those who don't buy into their mythical nonsense.
Posted by Left is Right at 01/03/2007 @ 8:51pm
Without articles like this, Robertson wouldn't exist.
Posted by FREIHEIT 01/03/2007 @ 9:06pm | ignore this person
er, no. this has been all over the media, not just here. that's just not true.
Posted by johannesrolf at 01/03/2007 @ 10:15pm